Stewarding Your Marriage and Finances with Dr. Chris and Alisa Grace

In this episode, Ronald Blue Trust private wealth advisor, Colby Gilmore, sits down with the directors of Biola University's Center for Marriage and Relationships, Dr. Chris and Alisa Grace. Chris is a professor of Psychology at Biola University. He and Alisa, his wife, are frequent speakers at marriage conferences around the country. In this episode, they offer wisdom on how to faithfully steward your relationships and resources as well as share practical insights on enhancing your marriage. Regardless of your relationship status, there is something for everyone in this conversation.

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Transcript

Welcome to the Wisdom for Wealth for Life podcast. Let's bridge the gap between your faith and your finances. At Ronald Blue Trust, we apply biblical wisdom and technical expertise to help you make wise financial decisions. Our goal is to help you leave a lasting legacy. In this podcast, you will hear inspiring stories, practical tips and encouragement from the Ronald Blue Trust family with special guests along the way. Welcome to the Wisdom For Wealth for Life podcast. 

The information in this podcast is provided for general educational purposes only. It is not indented as specific individual advice. The client experience may not be representative of the experience of other clients and they are also not indicative of future performance or success. Opinions expressed may not be those of Ronal Blue Trust. 

In this episode Ronald Blue Trust private wealth advisor, Colby Gilmore, sits down with the directors of Biola University's Center for Marriage and Relationships, Dr. Chris and Alisa Grace. Chris is a professor of psychology at Biola University. He and his wife, Alisa, are frequent speakers at marriage conferences around the country. In this episode, they offer wisdom on how to faithfully steward your relationships and resources, as well as share practical insights on enhancing your marriage. Regardless of your relationship status, there is something for everyone in this conversation. Let's listen in now.
 
 I know there's a lot of listeners out there to this podcast, and I'm so glad you're continuing because today it's going to be so fun and very exciting. I know there's a lot of celebrities out there, people that they want to meet. Now I get the privilege of having these celebrities here. This is my good friends, my dear friends, our personal marriage mentors Chris, Dr. Chris and Alisa Grace.
  

Hey, Colby. Thank you, Colby. And it's good to be here. It is.
 
What a great introduction, man. We got a lot to live up to there.
  

That's right.
 
 Well, let me continue to make it a higher standard. So. So, Chris, for many years you've been at Biola University. You were a VP there. You're pretty famous on campus for your psychology 101 class that I think everyone has to go to. Probably why psychology is one of the biggest majors there due to you.
 
 And then, Alisa, you've had a lot of journey through communications. And I know you worked as director of
 communications at Far East Broadcasting. You are director of Internal Communication at Biola University. And at some point and there you were, director of women's ministry at Redemption Hill?
 
 I was yeah, for for about four years, part time. That was my first foray back into work after taking about seven years off to be home with our kids. So we had an unexpected blessing arrive about nine years after our last child. And once she was on the way, we wanted to be sure to be home more with them until she got in school. So I was really blessed to be able to do that and then step back in at the church.
 
 Yeah.
 
 And then one other thing is you guys teach this class that really had a major impact on me and my Christine.
 My wife. Is a class called Christian Perspectives on Marriage? Marriage and Relationships. So I know that's where we first got introduced. I didn't actually take the class. Christine was taking it. You let me sneak in there as newlyweds and to learn and glean from you guys and a couple of your other good couple friends that were there.
 
 Now, during that time, can you tell us a little bit about the creation of that class, the Christian perspectives
 on marriage and relationships, and then what was birthed out of that, which was really your ministry that's come into fruition and so much blessing over the last ten years.
 
 Yeah, we you know, thanks  Colby, we'd been teaching classes, you know, university students coming through for almost 30 some years. And in doing so, we just recognized that, first of all, it was amazing
 to work with that population. They are new, they are impressionable. They want to learn. But what ended up happening was this question that started to nag at us is they're getting great content biblically, right?
 
 They're getting great scientific input. They're getting liberal arts education. But when they leave here, are they really understanding relationships? Are they better are at marriage, let's say, than before they came in? Even if they're not married, are they processing and dealing with issues that'll help them? And we realized the answer to the question was a lot of our graduates didn't have a maybe an intentional focus
 on relationships and on marriages. So we thought we're going to have to answer the question,  are your students better prepared for marriage and relationships than before they came in? And if to do that, we need to start doing something a little bit more intentional.
 
 And so we decided, well, let's have a class, let's bring in some of the top researchers in the area of communication, of marriage, the area of psychology, of marriage, and of biblical theological perspective. So six of us all got together and said, we're going to create a class. We brought all six with expertise in those areas, and that's what happened. And so I think our first class man, we probably had 400 students piling in, people like you who we learned later on just showed up because it was so easy to come into
 a large auditorium and no one knew. You know, we had people in there and I'd handed out I remember one time I handed out the midterm to a bunch of students. They go, oh, we're not taking the test. We're really not students in the class. I go, what do you mean you're not? You've been here all year, and they go no we just like to listen to this material. So we've been doing that now.
 
 And really what it was, was this opportunity to start training more and more earlier and earlier so that ultimately at the end, people started to learn things. That was not just from the communication of relationships or the psychology or a biblical, but how you integrate all of that and made it more practical.

And that was so fun. And that was the very beginning of we can do this, add a little bit more broad level and keep it not just with university students, but man we could spread this out to others out there, you know,
 throughout other colleges and universities. But then with other companies and organizations and churches.
 
 But I'd love to know, just before we get into the the Biola Center for Marriage and Relationships,
 what do you guys to Ronald Blue Trust or at least to me after all these years?
 
 Yeah, I know. It was awesome. And Alisa has a great story related to that. I think initially when we started looking at relationships and marriage, which we had been doing, you know, kind of at a research level,
 we've realized everywhere we went, couples were struggling with simple issues that seemed on the surface to be, oh, they're arguing about money, they're arguing about food, they're arguing about being late.
 
 And you think, well, that's so simple to cure. It's just about being late or it's just money. Just fix it, when in reality it's just the tip of the iceberg and it's much deeper than that. And so we started diving into things
 and looking at it. And one of the I think one of the things that ended up happening, Colby, was we recognized that a lot of the issues that couples face, or, as you mentioned, were universal and Christians
 weren't doing any better with these. There were many Christians who were struggling with the exact same thing. And the answer was, well, hold on, here we have a Holy Spirit. We have a Father who loves us. We have a Son who died for us. What is that impact? And shouldn't we be able to see that a little bit more on relationships?
 
 So in that process, we realized that first of all, we needed to really make an impact because as believers
 we had so many tools at our disposal, man. We have God himself who wrote the original textbook on how to do relationships well, right? Jesus who showed us the model and the spirit that comes with us. And I think that was the impetus. And the starting point was we need to do this better if we're going to follow Jesus. And so that class came out. And what was funny is our relationship, Colby, started by you being in that class and Alisa I think you tell the story.
 
 Yeah. As we started the CMR, I think we had you come and write a couple of blogs for us. And from your perspective for you and Christine, because I think you were just making you were in the process of making the move from your previous employer to working at Ron Blue Trust. And we were very curious to know what what spurred you to make that change? And I remember you talking about putting really taking account of what's important in life and investing in that and your marriage. Your family was important to you and you wanted to work in an environment that fostered that for you in a professional environment.
 
 And you were so excited about coming to work at Ronald Blue. So and we said, hey, Colby, why don't you work and just write a couple of blogs for us on your journey of why marriage and money were very important for you and how you and Christine managed that, and then how this factor of making a big change professionally for you factored in to that. And it was such a great blog and I think we had you write another one and and we really began to know you, not just as Colby Gilmore, the student, but really as Colby Gilmore, the the financial expert.
 
 And I think as you worked with us and talked with us about working with our donors at the Center for Marriage and  Relationships, we just really began to respect you and your expertise in that when you offered to help us do some financial planning, we're like, Yeah, this seems like a no brainer. Let's definitely do that. And so as we got to know you and hear your heart about the values of the company, we felt very confident in placing our financial strategy in your capable hands. And so that's I think that's what really started our relationship with Ronald Blue was through you.
 
 Yeah.
 
 And it's just a great story to Colby. I got I got to brag on you, man. So here we are. We're at a university. I'm working as you know, an administration. And our president says, Hey, Chris, let's start a relationship center, a place for, you know, where students can find all of this great expertise. And and so we decided to launch
 I remember this and we had mentioned it to that class that we are now going to launch a center here at the university. And we want and we shared our vision and our hope. Well, one of the cool things that we get to do is our center is donor funded. And we decided to make it that way because we felt like there were a lot of good benefits to doing that rather than taking tuition to create the center.

Well, as we announced that, we were excited to begin, you know, making connections with people that would like to invest in a center and see that kind of impact, being able to use their wealth to make an impact in the kingdom. Right. Our very first donor was these undergraduate students who were newly married, very poor, and our first check we ever received ever at our center was from this couple for $400.It's a check we have never cashed because we are so impressed and it was so awesome
 to get our first check from an undergraduate student who was married and their names were Colby
 and Christine Gilmore, who had made a decision after sitting in that class that they wanted to invest in relationships and they wanted to put into practice this cool thing about what they're learning about money and wealth. And they did.
 
 And we were so impressed that it started our relationship. Like, who is Colby and Christine Gilmore? We got to go find them. I know they're students and I know they're in our class and I've talked to them. But what's going on in their hearts that they would do this? And so that Colby was one of our first introductions to you. And Christine was to not just what you did as students and not just your grade, which was a B-minus, but it was actually. 

Yeah. No, I'm sorry. Oh, yes.
 
 That's that's why you got a B-minus. You might have done better.
 
 But the very fact that you guys did something that was so unexpected for poor college students, and then when we learned that it was something that you guys decided it was really a sacrifice, sacrifice on your part.

Ten years later, we're here and the Center for Marriages has all these resources. You guys are a center studying on not only just research from an academic level on relationships, but you're doing free marital counseling for anyone that wants to call in anywhere around the world, correct?
 
 Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
 
 You've got the Art of Relationships podcast, which I just brag on that a little bit. It's in how many countries listen to?
 
 Yeah, it's it's in 131 countries now. And we just hit a milestone. We have over 550,000 downloads of the Art of Relationships. So the Lord has been very, very good. Our motto is, Lord, take us to those that need us and bring those we need to us. And so in terms of a a digital presence online to to be able to do this with a podcast and host experts in all kinds of different fields of relationship research, it's just given us a first step and a platform beyond what we ever dreamed.
 
 And the Center for Marriage and Relationships could be.
 
 Yeah, and to tie those together.
 
 Colby, here's the thing. I think for listeners out there, if I had any advice to give just in us processing this, is this when God prompts you to do something, even if for you it's as little as saying hello to somebody. It's seeing somebody that maybe needs encouragement and it's the small things. I mean, $400 is a lot of money
 for some people. And for others. You think, well, that's like 1/100 or 1/1000 of what we need. We need much more than that. But I think for any listener out there, if I had any encouragement when it comes to their wealth, it's listen, God can use your faithfulness just like he used the penny from the woman. It is not the amount, it's your heart. And if it's your hearts, that's kind of prompting you to say, I'm going to go buy that guy lunch. I'm going to go donate to this church. There's a missionary in in this part of Africa or this part of Japan or this part of Europe. And you know, we only have $50, but I feel like God wants us to give it to them. It's not the amount. It's really partnering and faithfulness with the Holy Spirit that says, man, let's just kind of follow what He wants me to do. And I think if there's anything that comes out of all of this story and are working in the center is we're realizing that he seeks out in the small things our faithfulness. Because when we're faithful and little man there's, you know, faithful in us that follows in a lot. So I think for any listener out there, I think the message would be this Do not underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit
 being involved in transformative work, in the work and lives of others by just a simple act of either, whether it's generosity of of wealth or generosity of your spirit. It's using your peace, your hope, your joy, whatever little thing he's giving you.
 Right?
 
 Maybe it's volunteering and donating your time. That is where God makes transformative work, right? In the little things he transforms us. I think that's such a great point, Chris, what you're saying is that even as a as a nonprofit, ourselves, a ministry, we have donors, but we're still responsible to be generous with the time and the talents of the Center for Marriage and Relationships. And we feel really strongly about that.
 
 So one of the resources we have, we call it our Neighbor Love Initiative. And so the goal is to take our expertise and marital relationships healthy Christ centered relationships, and take this to people that don't have access to it. Whether it's socioeconomically or perhaps they're in a very affluent university, secular university setting, they're not going to step foot on the doorstep of a door, probably.
 
 And if somebody comes to say, hey, you know, I just want to share Christ with you there, they're very likely
 to get shouted down and start a riot. Now a days right? That that's even a place where we can take our credentials in higher education. Chris, as a psychologist, a Ph.D., our coworker Tim Muehlhoff, Ph.D. in communication theory, and go into universities like UC Berkeley. We've been to UC Berkeley twice on the, opening the door of, hey, come find out how to do healthy relationship and we'll give you some tips about that.
 
 Because they know that what the world has to offer isn't working. They're living it. And so they will come
 for that relationship advice. And then we're able to take it and use it as a backdoor to be able to share, say and share. You know, we come at this from a Christian perspective. I love that because it's so fun to be able
 to take this material and things that we do and whether we worked in inner city L.A..
 
 Right.
 
 And we translated this in Spanish and we did it all for free.
 
 Detroit. Inner city Detroit.
 
 Same thing. Yale Law School.
 
 Yeah.
 
 So we go to Yale Law School and we're talking to, you know, all these, you know, people that are, you know,
 working on their degrees at Yale. And but my favorite was Berkeley, right?
 
 So we're there. We're up there talking to an open audience of students, man. And so they're just a bunch of students out. And we're talking about how do you do a healthy relationship? How do you live life to the fullest? But how do you invest right now so that, you know, these are the things that will help you grow and challenge you and do something healthy? And I think we called it well, I remember the real news about fake love as we talked about, because that was kind of the the whole fake news thing, real news about fake love. Anyway, so we're talking and just going on. We end it, very last thing we say is, hey, listen, by the way, we gave you all these great principles from psychology and communication, but we want you to know one other thing. We happen to be Christians, and so we follow a biblical worldview. And if any of you all have questions on that, we'd love to talk to you about it. Hey, good to see y'all, thanks. 

 And they didn't chase you out. 

 No, in that moment it's too late.
 
 So this first guy that walks up to me, I'll never forget, man, he was, you know, he was Muslim. And he walks up and and stands there in front of me with the, you know, a line of people stand in front of me and another line stand in front of my colleague over there. And I'm thinking, man, why don't you go stand in his line? I'm about to get blasted by this UC Berkeley undergrad who's just going to pick apart everything I just said. And he looks at me and he said, you know, I have a question and I'm thinking, all right, man, bring it on. Here we go. He goes I got a question. He said, I've been listening to this and I. I just have to say I could you help me? I don't know how to talk to a girl. Do you know how to start a conversation with a girl?
 
 I thought, oh, dude, that's like the best question ever. I said, I do know. I think I can help. He goes, Really?
 I go, Yes. Do you know any girls in here that you'd like to start to talk with? He goes, maybe over there. I go, By the way, are you an engineering major? And he says, Yes. How did you know? I said, Oh, just a guess. Oh, you just kind of struck me as engineering.
 
 And I said, Buddy. I said, Yeah, there's about a couple of words that I think you can use in any relationship. And then he pointed to a girl, I go over there and try this. I said, Let me just give you a piece of advice. It's better to be well, the way I said it to him, you know, it's better to be interested than interesting.
 
 And this is something Alisa and I've been talking about with our students. Be interested. Too many times. You know, you're trying to meet somebody and you're like, I need to be interesting. I got to show all the things about me. Ooh, I want them to know this. And really the best advice was, Buddy, it's better to be interested than interesting. And he goes, Oh, I can do that. I go, Yeah, you just asked questions and you're interested. And he goes. And I said, You want to go try it? And he goes, I think I'm going to do it. So I see him make his way over there. Now, I'm not sure. I do know they were married six months later, but I.
 
 No they weren't. I don't know what happened to them.
 
 But the point is he just felt like it was something that was a take home. But all that to say, to make an impact and to take our any ministry, any heart to the deepest, darkest places and where else, you know, there are only out of 400 faculty at UC Berkeley. It's awesome there, but only three are known to be Christian. And so it's a dark place for the gospel, just like the inner city can be. It could be a thriving place of the gospel in most inner cities, man. Jesus is loved there.
 
 But there's also elements, you know, that are not. In affluent America. When you talk about some of the darkest, worst places where they need to hear relationships and they need to hear how to use their wealth and they need to use how they use their gifts.
 
 And we're so different. I remember this. My dad gave a Alisa a $100, my dad and he gave me $100 for Christmas.
  
Every Christmas.
 
 It was the highlight of our Christmas.
  

And so here we are. He gave us this money. And I'm thinking to myself, this is the most awesome thing
  in the world. We don't have any money, you know, we're newly married, I'm in graduate school, we got nothing. And I'm thinking to myself, Oh, we can pay off bills. We could save just a little bit. And my wife has this weird idea that it's her hundred to spend. I'm like, So we're driving from Colorado back to California and the argument begins over the next and it continued for five years because every year, you know, every once in a while he'd give us 200 bucks. We're like, oh my gosh. And I knew what's going to happen. Alisa was going to say her belief was that it's her money and she gets to spend it.
 
 And guess what? That's messed up. That's not even in the Bible, man. The Bible says you should save, you should put money towards whatever. So but here's the weird thing. We just grew up differently. Right? And our life is different and we never really got to talk about what was going on deeply about that money. And I think that's what happens to a lot of couples. They don't talk about what's really going on with money, what happens with this little $400 want to give here are this 400 we get or this 200 we get.
 
 And my view was shaped by who I was, by my story, by my history. That is, man, you can't run out because it's easy to run out of money. And if you run out of money, things are going to go bad. And I can't take care of my family. We're going to go hungry. And so if we get $200, we're going to save it and pay our bills. And Alisa was brought up in a family that said, you know what, we save and we we continue over the years to make sure that we're doing well. And then we get to spend on ourselves in joy because we've been so frugal
 throughout the year and this is our money. And so all of a sudden we come to this conflict. Colby. And we don't resolve this between Albuquerque and L.A. Man, We don't even resolve it between Albuquerque and the next year and the next year and the next year, because it was just simply a difference in the way we viewed money.
 
 Alisa happened to view it as this great pleasurable reward for being careful throughout the year, and now it's hers. And my dad gives it her money. And I'm thinking, Lisa, that's just selfish, man. You can't spend money on clothes or on your gifts when we have, you know, this bill do or whatever.
 
 Yeah, well, who's right? Well, I know I'm right. And I'm thinking I'm right. You shouldn't be able to tell me
 what to do with my gift. Who says you can tell me what to do with my gift? I should get to decide that.
 
 So for us, it was really it wasn't the money. It was the hidden, deeper, emotional buttons. That money pushed for us. And here's what  it pushed for a Alisa that meant for her that when I said, man, you've got to give this money to us as a couple and we go, the I was controlling her. I was telling her, this is how you do it. And she felt like, why are you telling me what to do with my money? And and it evoked in her like, yeah, this sense of me trying to control her, made her feel powerless. 

I just wanted to dig my heels in at that point it's like, oh, no you don't. 

Yeah if you see her dig your heels in.
 
 It's messy. I'm a Texas girl. No, you don't mess with that.
 
 No, those heels are cowboy boots and they dig deep. So.
 
 But for me, Colby, I think what it was, was, you know, I was beginning to feel  like she didn't value the importance, you know, of money or she she didn't care about saving or she just didn't care. And I had security issues like that meant I was going to be safe. That meant we were going to eat as a family. That meant whatever, you know. And I think a lot of couples never really get to the point where they talk about
 what does money mean to your heart? What does it mean to you when you feel that's a security thing? And giving this money makes me feel not secure because that means I have to trust God.
 
 Well, okay. But sometimes God doesn't show up and we're not going to have food. So I think one of the cool things that we discovered was in that conflict, one day I finally just got to this point, and I think a lot of couples need to ask themselves this question. Lisa, I said we were somewhere outside of Flagstaff, Arizona, and I said, Lisa, could you just tell me what money means to you? Can you could you just start with your background? Tell me about your family and what does that mean when you got a gift and I just want to listen to you, man. And I think for the next 120 miles, she just poured out her heart about what it was like growing up and what money meant and how you saved and and how you spent and how she viewed things.
 
 And it started slowly to dawn on me that my way was really the only way. And in fact, her way had some deep validity, deep power to it. And I was listening to her heart, and what God was doing in there was breaking down some of my filters that I saw as her being selfish and her being, you know, only thinking about herself. And I realized, oh, my goodness, this is all as much as about my heart. Seeing the way she sees money. And he started to break down these filters and then vice versa.
 
 It was wonderful because as we had that discussion, he was so, so sweet and so tender with me, and especially to initiate that conversation at that deep level. He took the initiative to listen to me and to seek me out first. And so that really helped me not feel so defensive because I felt like he was really hearing me for the first time that I I'm feeling like I don't have any power in this relationship. That when you tried to tell me what I should do with my gift that takes my power away, and I think that's what I react to.
 
 And he responded so sweetly when, you know, at the end of that 120 miles, he just said, Lis, I don't want to control you. I love you. And you know, I gosh, I really hate that I've made you feel that way. And then I was able to do that and turn for him. Chris, share your heart with me. Tell me what's going on for you with the money thing. And and as he began to communicate his deep desire to really lead  our family well, to protect us financially, because he didn't grow up with much and he knew what it's like to really struggle. And he didn't want that for us. He was actually trying to protect me. He's trying to protect our family. And when I go out and spend money haphazardly, then he feels undermined in trying to actually protect me and provide wealth for me. And when I understood he's not trying to take my power away, he's actually protecting me.
  

Oh, my gosh. That was just like mind blow. Suddenly now I'm much more compassionate and empathetic with his perspective. Now that I know what's going on at that deeper level, now that he understands what's really happening for me with money now he's much more compassionate and empathetic. And when you have more compassion, more empathy, you're much more willing to change your own behavior.

 And there's a communication technique I think I learned on your podcast. The Art of Relationships from from your colleague Dr.Tim Muehlhoff, but just the concept of when we are speaking to each other, there's three things, right? The one is, what do I know about myself? Yeah, right. Internally. Second is, what do I know about the other? That could be your spouse. What do I know really about them? Because when it comes to that conflict, we might instantly go on this. Or maybe Satan whispers going, They're a bad person. But you go, No, I know something unique about them, even though the conversations may be feeling different. And then the third being, What are we trying to accomplish together?
 
 So as you guys engage in that conversation, you knew I love Alisa. I know her heart is, but I've got to figure out what that route was of of her upbringing. And I think what happens in that moment, if we had to tell listeners or couples anything, is they're dealing with this, is this oftentimes we approach the other person. I mean, it's hard for us to to get self understanding. That's the first one, right? I mean, oftentimes we're blind and we we need somebody to speak into our lives and say, man, I'm a sinner.
 
 But I don't see that. But I think the other one is we tend to see our partner and spouse through a filter
 as if we know them. Like I've been with the Alisa for 35 years. I know everything about her. But here's the weird thing that we tell couples. Yeah, and they change. People change, we're different. And do you know truly that you're always seeing your spouse through this one lens and that's not always who they are. And they I think sometimes couples finally break through that and go, but this is the way she always is
 and this is the way she acts. And this is what her reaction is going to be. And we're like, Hold on here, man. You might want to go ask her and listen, because I guarantee you, God has been working on her heart, taking her in different places, and moving in different directions. And you continue to apply your filter, your lens of what used to be, and you need to break through that.
 
 So one time I did that, I were on an airplane. I said, Lisa, what's on your heart, man? Where you've been now? We've been married 15 years. 16 years. Lisa, what's going on with you? How has God worked? And she came up with this kind of statement. One day she goes, Chris, I think God's been working on me that I feel his pleasure when I go and do an adventure. Yeah, when I do. And I'm thinking, wait, what? And she goes, I love just going and doing adventure and being in new place.
 
 I'm thinking, Wow, where'd that come from? But if I didn't listen or take time, you know, then eventually we begin to see our spouses the way we want to see them. And that second bullet about what do they think is something that we just can't assume? Man, we have to really take time to practice this.
 
 There's something really powerful that I think you're talking about. Colby, in our relationships and it's this. The the power of taking the other person's perspective. Perspective taking. Put yourself in their shoes, trying to see it, how they're seeing it, and then try to feel the way they're feeling about it. And and be informed by that. And then not only take their perspective, see it from their point of view, but then to validate that. 

We talk often about this concept of stewardship. I think we've all heard it. If we've been in the Christian world, actually now it's it's probably even more popular in the post-Christian world, you know, the stewardship of the world, the stewardship of the environment.
 
 And there's two places I'd like to go with this. Is one, there's the stewardship of God's resources, right? Which if we could sum that up, it's you know, stewards are called to be faithful. And what we do and that's in the little or in very much. It's I've used this analogy when I spoke before my grandfather owned car washes and I got the dream job before coming to Ron Blue, you know, which is another dream job to work at the car wash. And I was the manager. The thing I learned and this is where it really clicked for me around what is stewardship is that my grandfather was the owner, I was the manager. So there's a couple differences there. One is I showed up. I got to open up everything. I got to handle the things and report back at the end of the day to the owner and say, you know, he'd say, well, how many cars we wash? Did you close up everything? Are we low on anything? But I got I got it welcome it. Or you know, I might have the rough day going. We lost the paycheck and then, you know, hear the wrath of the owner. But what also I realized was I didn't have the risk. Right? I got to close up. It was all entrusted to me. And he was the owner
 that took on all the risk. So I saw that as this is God, our Father in stewardship is I'm the manager of all that he's given me here, but he's got all that under control. And I just I'm going to come he's going to come back to me at some point. It might come at lunchtime. He might come at closing. He's going to ask what you do with it? 

And I could do a couple of things wrong. One is I start telling everyone there it's my car wash and I start walking away with stuff. I start applauding myself and the owners of to come and go, This isn't yours,
 get out of here. But also I had the stewardship of a few things. It was it wasn't just the armor all and the vacuums, right? It was how I handle relationships with the customers, how I handled our vendors. Right. Was I being having integrity at the suppliers with the profits? What do we do with those? And then there was an influence, right? We are in a community there. And so there's a couple of things there.
 
 I saw on the stewardship side our founder, Ron Blue, defined stewardship as the use of God, given resources for the accomplishment of God given goals. And I remember sharing that with you both. And you go one step deeper and you said, based off of your unique God giftedness. So apart from the kind of financial stewardship, how do we and I know you have a resource around going kind of spiritually deeper with your spouse, but how do we steward our marriages?
 
 Well, man that's a great question, because it all of these things come together, our spiritual, our emotional, our financial worlds in in that we are, you know, these beings that are complex right, humans and but in reality, created in God's image gives us some amazing things. And he says to us, listen, I want you to do this.
 This is my plan for you in life, right? Use the gift I've given you and steward it well. And what's the worst thing we can think of is if you you trust a steward to do something good for you, they take advantage of you. It's like the greatest betrayal. And this is why pyramid schemes work is because people trust them to steward and they're not doing it. And you're like, What's going on?
 
 I think, Colby, when we recognize what Ron Blue, for example, and you guys do it, Ronald Blue was this ability for us to know something fairly powerful. And that is the way you guys follow a God, a King, a Savior,
 a Lord that is biblical and deep. And that right there tells me something about the heart of the steward, right? If a steward is somebody who wants to give God glory and all that they say and do, and they want to use their gifts. I don't know how people at Ron Blue use their gifts, but I know they have a gift of things like working in management and working in finances and but they're drawn to it because it's something that they know deep in their heart is going to give glory to God. They're being good stewards.
 
 If Jesus says love each other in John, just as I have loved you, I want you to love one another. Well, he's my one another. He's my number one one another. The most important human relationship that I have on this earth. And so my the evidence of my discipleship to Jesus, my relationship with him will be and how I live this out with him. Am I forgiving like Jesus? Forgive me, do I exhibit patience, kindness, gentleness, love, joy,
 you know, self-control. The whole fruit of the spirit from Galatians needs to be evident in my relationship with Chris because it is a testimony to a hurting world around us that God really does exist. Christ really was his son and he really does take the broken busted things of this world and redeem them and make them new. And so that's a that's a really important stewardship.
 
 We think of parenting as stewardship and as our discipleship. How we treat our coworkers is evidence of our discipleship. How we spend our money is evidence of our discipleship. And if it's his money, then we need to make sure that we are spending it, managing it in ways that represent his priorities, his kingdom purposes. And part of that is living it out practically in how we manage our family budget as a couple and as parents. And when Ronald Blue, through you, Colby, when they came into our lives and our ministry, we just simply evaluated this on that basis.
 
 Are they faithful? Do their does their team exhibit and want to bring praise to God? Do they use their gifts in a way that glorifies him? And that's a stewardship issue that was so powerful for us. And the way you guys focus on relationships as more important or as important as what kind of money you have, it doesn't matter whether you're, you know, mega wealthy or not. You guys treat people the same way. I love that.
 
 We've gotten to meet the Crossons, and we got to meet, you know, the Stonestreets. Yeah. And as we did,
 we are visiting with them however briefly. It's so impressive to listen to their hearts and listen to the way they view what they do. And I think that's what drew us to y'all and to Ron Blue and why we recommend so oftentimes to all our friends, like, oh, my gosh, if you want a steward, if you want somebody that's going to help you, if you want to partner with somebody who has the same vision and heart that  you do, man, check out people that love Jesus in a way and they treat others. nicely.
 
 Well, what if you had great company with all these great models, but you're CEO or you're, you know, your digital media coordinator treated other people below them, you know, in a rotten, horrible way or they just didn't. Instead find someone who lives that, who has authenticity, an authentic between their public self and their private. They live out in their private world. They live out in their relationships with others. What they speak publicly and man guess what. People find gaps between that they call that deception and they hide and run from them.
 
 They're like, wait a minute, you say this with your words, but your actions do not show love to your fellow brother, man. You find somebody who treats somebody who can do nothing for them the way they treat that person. That's called character or right character is looking at the way you treat somebody who could do nothing for you. And I'll tell you, that tells me more about a man's character.
 
 I think it was Dan Reeves who used to coach the Denver Broncos and the Atlanta Falcons, and he said that was his favorite, saying. I could always tell the character of a man, by the way he treats those who could do nothing for him. Well, we pay attention as humans to authenticity. And if you do what you say you're going to do or what you talk and tell others to do, we think that and that's a good steward and that's what drew us, man, to you guys was seeing you guys walk that walk.
 
 Absolutely.
 
 So there's so much resources that people, viewers, listeners can go deeper off of your what, your research, your pre-marital counseling guides, free relationship advice, encouragement for those that are doing it well to be mentors to the next generation. But can you give us a couple maybe success stories that you've seen recently speaking at maybe your Weekend to remember other places? You know, you go out to a city and
 you talk about marriages and guess what? It is the vehicle by which God oftentimes uses to reach into our hearts. It uses these couples conflicts to reach in. And all of a sudden now we see couples making these massive changes. We see people through couples conflict come to know Jesus as Savior and Lord. 

We were just in a city, let's say it's in Nebraska, and it starts with, O, and there were 32 people who came to Christ at an event with Family Life simply because at their marriage while we were talking about it, issues of conflict came up and they realized they needed something deeper by which to base their marriage on in their relationship. And that happened to be Jesus and that happened to be something they didn't have. And we told them, You don't have this relationship and you do want to hear this relationship. Let me tell you about a way and a foundation that we do, and that is even psychology and communications is only going to get you so far. It's not the answer to the world's problems. The answer to the world problems is Jesus. And that foundation of your marriage is not going to be all these great psychological principles and communication insights and all of these, whatever. It's going to be who Jesus was and the way you view your spouse and the way he views you is very powerful to know.
 
 And so we share the gospel at that point. Man can you imagine all these people using conflict and God using couples conflicts by which they can now come to know him. That is so awesome. I mean, I'm like, God, I'll keep doing this the rest of my life, man. You stand up there and I'll talk about my conflict and my mess up with my spouse and all these things, and yet you can redeem that and use that in somebody's life. You say that this is okay.
 
 We've had couples at the marriage conferences that came up afterwards and said, we have the divorce papers literally sitting in an envelope in our car and because we were here this weekend, we feel like we have a brand new start. We are tearing up those papers and we feel confident and we feel excited. For the first time in decades for our marriage. And you think, wow, a marriage conference on the weekend? Or we had students that come to that, our Christian perspectives on relationships and marriage. And they'll come in and they'll say, well, you know, I'm not married, obviously, and I'm not dating anybody, so I'm not really sure what I'll get out of this class. But basically what they get is they walk out of that class with new skills and healthy conflict management, healthy communication. They've been through exercises, learning how to forgive, how to ask for forgiveness, how to extend forgiveness. You know, how do you how do you forgive somebody that isn't sorry for what they did? 

And in fact, this one girl shared at the end of class, we have a share day. And the very last class period, we say we want to hear about the impact that this class has made in your life. And one little gal stood up. She said her dad been abusive emotionally, physically, verbally her whole life. He has now passed away and she has always carried such anger and bitterness toward him. And she knew she did, but she didn't know how to let go of it. And through the exercise that we did in our class and through the steps that we were able to provide to to explain what is forgiveness, what is it not? You know, it's not letting somebody just off the hook. But you take them off your hook and you put them on God's hook and release them into the Lord's hands for the Lord's the Lord to deal with them and then invite the Lord into that her in that pain with you and and as you pray, you're handing it to Jesus. And imagine, as you hand it, your hand him, that hurt that pain with that relationship. What does he do with it? What do you see in your mind? What do you imagine he does with it? And she says he's taken it and he's throwing it into the sea of forgetfulness because we told him about the the our class, about the Bible verse that the Lord takes our sins and He throws them into the sea of forgetfulness. And then I think it was Corrie, Ten Boom, that says and he posts a do not fish, do not fish sign in front of it. And so through that class, she said, I thought I wasn't really going to get anything out of this because I'm not near a dating relationship, but I've gained something more. I've actually been able to forgive my dad and I feel free for the first time in my life. You know?
 
 And so it's that to be able to do this kind of deep work, to learn how to have flourishing Christ centered relationships, not just relationships where Jesus as valued, but where he's actually the foundation and the center of it. And to do it at this point in their lives where they're still young, you know, in college,
 they're on the on the front end of forming these lifelong relationships like you and Christine were doing. And to be able to give them this foundation, these principles, these concepts of living out these relationships as a form of their discipleship to Christ helps them lay a foundation that's going to take them through the rest of life and not only benefit them, but it's going to be generational change for them, their children, their children's children. 

So we've learned a lot here. I know we can continue and continue, but we've learned and talked about stewardship. We've talked about gentleness and how to handle you and communicate in your relationship to know what is really going on and the roots are. We talked about generosity and just that there's so much power and being generous with each other and generous with what God's entrusted to us. But as we finish, for those that really want to go a lot deeper around marriage and relationships. Any last resources that you want to make available or let people know where they can go and gather those?
 
 Click over to the Art of Relationships podcast. Right? Highly recommend.

Yeah, something that we put on.
 
 And then we have, you know, we have blogs that we put out in videos. We do marriage conferences throughout the country and our materials go out everywhere. And so as you're listening to Ron Blue, and you guys have landed it a great podcast, keep listening to this. Head over to the Art of Relationships
 at different times if you want to augment that. And then there are other great resources out there and we try and bring those together from some of the top thinkers in the world. So man, we cover material from guys like John Gottman, a marriage expert up in Seattle, to, you know, Gary Chapman, Gary Chapman to, you know, people, Scott Stanley and others. And we do that because we feel like males gather the best. 

And so a great place to go to check out our resources would be our web site. So it's cmr.biola.edu. cmr.biola.edu. We have blogs, video clips, the podcast. You can even sign up, have a weekly email newsletter that is just full of relationship tips, advice for dating singles, friendship, marriage, parenting, and a lot of free resources and some that are very inexpensive. The first one I would do man go to cmr.biola as she mentioned, and go look up Colby Gilmore literally from Ronald Blue. His blog.  His blog. And people
 are we just argue about money or we want more insights about that and you'll find a whole lot there.
 
 Yeah.
 
 So glad we got this time today.
 
 It's been so fun.
 
 Thanks for flying all the way out from sunny Southern California to humid, beautiful, beautiful Atlanta.
 
 Oh, it is beautiful. It's an honor to be here.
 
 It really is.
 
 It's been honored to meet the staff and to see that the people here on the staff really do live out what your website says you do with your core values. It's been very impressive. We're glad to be here.
 
 Thank you so much for listening to the Wisdom for Wealth for Life podcast. If you're looking for financial advice, please contact us. Please visit ronblue.com. That's ronblue.com. Thank you for listening and please subscribe to wherever you listen to your podcasts. Trusted investment management accounts and services offered by Ronald Blue Trust, Inc. are not insured by the FDIC or any other federal government agency are not deposits or other obligations of nor guaranteed by any bank or bank affiliate, and are subject to investment risk, including possible loss of the principle amount invested.