How To Leverage Wealth For Eternal Gain

In this podcast, we sit down with Ronald Blue Trust chief mission officer, Russ Crosson, and theologian, Ken Boa, to discuss their new book, Leverage: Using Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain. Together, they explain the principle of leverage and how it applies to matters of infinite importance as they encourage listeners that living with the end in mind is the key to stewarding God's gifts well and stewarding them for His kingdom. Listen in as they share practical tips and biblical wisdom around leveraging your resources for an eternal impact.

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Chapters

• 2:20 Why Leverage?
• 3:41 Biblical generosity and wisdom
• 5:18 Why give?
• 9:39 Reverse Compounding
• 16:10 Becoming a wise steward
• 17:41 The principles of Leverage
• 25:30 Living with an eternal perspective

Transcript

- [Announcer] Welcome to the Wisdom for Wealth for Life podcast. Let's bridge the gap between your faith and your finances. At Ronald Blue Trust, we apply biblical wisdom and technical expertise to help you make wise financial decisions. Our goal is to help you leave a lasting legacy. In this podcast, you will hear inspiring stories, practical tips, and encouragement from the Ronald Blue Trust family, with special guests along the way. Welcome to the Wisdom for Wealth for Life podcast. The information in these podcasts is provided for general educational purposes only. It is not intended as specific individual advice. The client's experience may not be representative of the experience of other clients, and they're also not indicative of future performance or success. Opinions expressed may not be those of Ronald Blue Trust. In this podcast, we sit down with Ronald Blue Trust Chief Mission Officer Russ Crosson and theologian Ken Boa, to discuss their new book, "Leverage: Using Temporal Wealth For Eternal Gain". Together they explain the principle of leverage and how it applies to matters of infinite importance as they encourage listeners that living with the end in mind is the key to stewarding God's gifts, as well as stewarding them for His kingdom. Listen in as they share practical tips and biblical wisdom around leveraging your resources for eternal impact. Let's listen in now.

- All right, well hey Ken, thanks for joining us on our Wisdom for Wealth for Life podcast today. I'm real excited about what we're gonna talk about. So I think as we get started here, I'm just remembering back you and I go back almost 40 years when we were together on the advisory board of NCF, and now we fast forward 40 years. And a couple years ago you had reached out and you were working on a book on giving. I'll come back to that in a minute. But the reason I'm most excited about us talking today is the people listening to this, Ron Blue clients, our clients because they really are interested in this topic. They want to be good stewards, they want to help us accomplish our mission, which is to free up resources to fill the great commission. And so this book that we're gonna be talking about, "Leverage", really is all around that. So talk to me a little bit about, the fact that we were able to co-labor on it, but you were thinking about this topic that Christians needed to really deal with a couple years ago. And so tell our listeners why you think this is such an important topic for them to get their arms around.

- Sure. I came up with a kind of an outline that I wanted you to kind of vet, because I knew as far as the principles are concerned, I'm a theologian and we can deal with that. But there were practical applications that were not, that needed to be nuanced, let's put it that way. And so I needed your expertise. And then the beauty of a project like this, it gives life to a new thing. It gives birth. And so it became a synergy between you and me, where let's, what about taking a theologian and looking at the biblical principles and then taking a practitioner and looking at the application of those principles? I don't know that it's been done before. But I think it led to a good outcome indeed.

- Yeah so this book for you listening, is really a summary of what Ronald Blue Trust has been about for over four decades. It's helping Christians figure out how to maximize their generosity. 1st Timothy 6, it says, "Instruct those who are rich in this world, not to be conceited or put their hope into the uncertainty of riches, but in God who richly applies us with all things to enjoy, instruct him to do good, to be rich and to be generous, ready to share." And so what what we've done in this book is try to help people figure out, how do I do that? How do I be rich towards God and be generous? And I would say, Ken, that's a four letter word that describes that is a wise person, a wise person figured out how to be generous versus the farmer over in Luke 12, who was not rich towards God. He was not generous, he's called a fool. So in this book, we try to unpack wisdom versus foolishness. And I know you've had a lot of good thinking on wisdom. Talk about that a little bit and just some of the, the theme that you take through the principles and thinking ahead and the next life and things like that.

- Yeah so a lot of this has to do with an eternal perspective. Because wisdom invites us to say, you've got to treat things according to their true value. And the most foolish thing we can do is to treat the temporal as if it's gonna last forever. And treat the eternal as if it's temporal. So our problems are mathematical in nature. Without that eternal perspective, we fail to grasp that we are actually on a sojourn, a pilgrimage, we're wayfairers, strangers and aliens and exiles in this world. And that people don't wanna let loose in this world. Especially because they have more in their lifestyle that they now take for granted than kings could have even dreamed of a century ago. And as a consequence, it's easy to begin to mistake this world for the next.

- So what we start doing is we're putting our hope rather than in God and thinking eternal, we start putting it in the pile. And this is especially a challenge for wealthy folks, the folks that have more than they need. That's why that verse is a struggle to those who are rich. And the definition of rich is having more than you need, which is most of the people listening to this podcast. And I'm so excited that for 40 years Ron Blue's been able to help people. Ron Blue's Trust tried to help people wrestle with this.

- [Ken] Yes.

- What do I do with this surplus? And how do I be generous towards God and be wise versus a fool and realize I'm a sojourner? So give us some insights into what what you think is a good way for these folks to think as they're trying to wrestle with this? They have more than they need. So why do they give? Why should they be giving?

- Yes part of the reason is to actually leverage that which is passing away into the currency of that which is going to endure forever. And so we are very big on this, and I speak about stewardship. We usually hear the time, talent, and treasure trilogy.

- [Russ] Right.

- But I also had two more, as you know, truth and I couldn't find a good T for relationships for people, you could try. I've seen it. But the point is, the two things out of those five that are gonna last forever are the word of God and people. You've never spoken to a mere mortal. So the real question is and Luke 16 tells us, therefore the question is make friends for yourself by means of the wealth of unrighteousness. Which by the way, money is not neutral. It is not to be seen as a neutral thing. It's a downward grip and a downward pull. The world of flesh and the devil always do have that gravity. So we overcome that downward pull of gravity, by the aero aerodynamics of the spirit where we take the wings of the spirit and elevate ourselves. So we're not pulled down. Even though the gravity's there, the aerodynamics brings us beyond. In the same way the aerodynamics of giving have to do with transmuting that which is passing away. So that when it fails, he says, in that parable, and it's gonna fail when you die. There'll be people that welcome you to the eternal dwelling. So the wise person would then be living in light of the reality. I often say age conspires with God to transfer our hope from the temporal to the eternal. But even so, people clinging desperately, what about my grandchildren or children, grandchildren? They wanna cling to this. They're not preparing for home. So if we can see no, giving well, giving wisely, giving generously is a mandate and it's gonna be a holy stewardship that Jesus is gonna ask us, what did you do with what I gave you?

- And so giving is an antidote to that downward pull. It starts to break the power of money.

- Yes.

- And this is where it gets challenging, because we wish the Bible just said, okay give X amount, give 22% or 36 or 65 or whatever. But that's where it gets real interesting, especially right if I have more than I need, it's like, okay, what am I supposed to do? Because I'm supposed to take care of my family. I'm supposed to

- Sure.

- Take care of that, so I've gotta balance living and I don't know when I'm gonna be called home, but that's why it takes accountability. I've gotta mistrust myself because I can convince myself of anything. I can convince myself I need a bigger pile. And that's one of the beautiful things that we say at Ron Blue. We do three things, help you make good financial decisions. Hold you accountable, which leads to peace of mind.

- Yes.

- We like to say we're a peace of mind company masquerading as a financial services company. And part of the way we help people get peace of mind is to help them wrestle with this, what help, what I should be given, given how I've been blessed. And so the New Testament, I wish, Julie and I have to wrestle with this every year. And what are we supposed to do? Add more to the savings or more to the retirement? Or give more? Or give some to the kids? And so, I think it's what you're saying is, is we think eternally we're at least gonna be wrestling with these issues.

- That's correct. These are matters that will not go away. You can just pretend you're not aging. You're pretending that I'm gonna live forever. But that's to deny reality. Reality tells us that we are actually amphibious beings. We have one foot in heaven, when we're seated with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus and our spiritual selves, and yet we're in a soul forming world, in this temporal arena. And so in this world, it's preparing us for home, and part of the way that's preparing us is to take that which has God has granted us, and then to use that to leverage that, to turn it into the currency of heaven by building eternal truth into eternal people.

- And so as we invest in people, then that's when as we get to heaven, then they're the ones that you're talking about are gonna welcome us. Cause we chose to send someone ahead rather than store it up here. And that continues to be the challenge for all of us. And that's why we love our Ron Blue clients. As they all come to us because they wanna be a good steward. They know that they've been blessed for something beyond just building a bigger barn. And so they wrestle with this. And so I'm so glad we have this tool, Ken, that we can give to them, that they can give to their friends and family to just to encourage them with how to think about it. The first part of the book talks about the principles of why, when, how much, where and all that. And then we talk about the practices. And so hopefully this will be a tool that'll affirm that they're on the right track and give this some encouragement. You mentioned that we're gonna get to the end and age conspires and we can't take it with us. And so we talk in the book about reverse compounding. And I remember when I shared that with you, you liked that concept.

- Very much so. Because it tells us effectively that the sooner, the earlier you give, the more you give earlier on, the more time it has to compound. But indeed it's a compounding of a spiritual investment that you can't count, control, quantify, or compare. And that's why people love to cling to that which they can quantify.

- Yeah they can see how much their retirement plan is earning. They can put a percentage on it.

- So it's a hard thing for you to quantify. But yet faith is the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen. It means that we're invited to then to pursue the things that are not yet over what that which is now, for hope for. And that which is unseen more than that which is visible. That takes a lot of risk. And yet we are, it's a faith founded on fact.

- Yeah.

- So that the reality then is that we're inviting, we're inviting ourselves to say, who am I? Why am I here? What's my purpose in this world? And let me allow the word to define me. If I do not, the world will define me. So the world will define you by default.

- Right.

- Do nothing. It'll tell you who you are, what to go for. The word will only define you by discipline.

- So our subtitle Ken, using temporal wealth for eternal gain, I think is what we're talking about here is, I've been given this stuff, I gotta provide for my family and all that. But if I've got more than I need, 1st Timothy 6, instruct those who are rich to be generous, willing to share, storing up treasures for the future. And so that takes a faith component, like you said. It's so interesting, when we start our businesses, when we start our career as we walk by faith, we don't have anything. But then God blesses you. Seems like the more you get, you begin to move your faith from God to the pile. Then when the pile moves around, when the market changes, you're like, oh no. But it's all a faith journey. And like you said, God's inviting us to maybe get out further than we're comfortable with, and maximize our generosity and testing and just see what might happen.

- So that very texture you're using there, that Paul is telling Timothy to instruct those who are rich in this present world, not to put their hope in wealth. Where it to be conceited, you see? So those two, those are two of the three downward pulls of wealth that are not neutral, putting your hope in the wrong place and becoming arrogant. You suppose that you did it. Like my friend who says that, it's like he wakes up on third base and he thinks he just hit a triple. He's born that way. And these are graces and gifts that were given. But then there's also this, a idea of harder to live by faith. So it's not neutral, so what we do with our time and what we do with our calendar, our calendar and our wealth. That's gonna define and reveal what our true priorities, we may say it, speak a good game. That's where accountability comes in as you were saying before. But the reverse compounding is a brilliant notion. And I had not really thought about this until we were discussing this. And the concept that the earlier you give and the more you give, the more that will actually grow and compound in the currency of eternity so that your compounding time is diminished the longer you wait.

- So when I get to heaven, I'm being shown my eternal home. And I go by this huge mansion up on the hill and I say, who's that? Well that's John Wesley 'cus you know, he didn't want to die with anything. And I go a little bit further down and here's, here's Billy Graham and I don't want to get taken down like many more streets and then some little cabin and say, well I thought I did more. Well I did the best I could with what you sent me.

- Yes.

- So I think what we're saying is the sooner I get busy sending some stuff on ahead, then that's what I'm gonna realize it. And I don't want to get there and be shown to my little cabin and then realize, oh, I could have done so much more.

- Yes. And that's a perspective then to embrace. What if I were to only have two days on my calendar, just today and that day, the day when I see Jesus. And then that will be the bema, the judgment seat, where he's gonna ask me questions, and what did you do with what I gave you? Wouldn't it be smart for me to live today in light of that day? Because 'cus today's the only day I've got. I don't have yesterday, I don't have tomorrow.

- [Russ] Right.

- So I have two days of my calendar if I'm living wisely. Today and that day, and leaving this today as if it were that day. And therefore to effectively say this day I'm gonna either squander or I'm going to invest, but I'll never get it back again. So it's a serious matter. In fact, I think as CS Lewis brightly put it, it's not that the people who are most heavenly-minded do less earthly good. Actually, the ones who are most heavily minded do more earthly good because they realize the precious present and the accountability that we have and that we're part of a larger story, not just this earth, but actually in preparation for eternal home, it's a bigger vision.

- Well and I love the way you said that, we need to be thinking today about that day. And so how do I use my money? What do I give? What do I get involved in? I really like the word wise in juxtaposition to a fool. I mean nobody listened to this podcast would wanna be a fool, I don't think.

- No.

- I wanna be a fool. No, nobody signs up for that. We wanna be wise. And so one of the ways we're wise is we seek accountability. We engage in this issue of, okay, what am I supposed to do with what God's given me?

- [Ken] That's right.

- And that's why I love the fact that we have such wonderful clients and people seek out Ronald Blue Trust for that very reason. And they said, hey, I've been blessed, I got a business, I'm in a practice or whatever, I need some help figuring this out because I don't want to get to that day.

- Yes.

- And realize, oh, I missed out.

- One of the things that you've done in your section of the book, because it's again, the first part is the principles, then your part is the practice. You bring it into application. But because I'm a big believer in loving well, learning well and living well, so the heart, head, and hand. So what begins with the heart should end with our actions as well. So at the end of the day though, you have this whole vision of what the flourishing, fruitful, worthwhile life looks like. And you know that your clients may want to do well, but without accountability and their stories where you've mentioned now what about this? And they don't want to do it. And you can feel. And I've noticed that the wealthier people are, there are these invisible ropes. They're like little maybe like gossamer strings, but they're like the Lilliputians, remember how Gulliver was held down by their ropes? He was like a sleeping giant. And these ropes, the more they have, the more they define us and the person defines himself by the pile rather than defining himself by what he's seeking to do in light of eternity. The visible has a way of overcoming the invisible every time.

- Yeah we like to say that we've gotta mistrust ourselves and the way to be a good steward, everybody says I wanna be a good steward.

- Yeah.

- Well, how you be a good steward, you do two things. You apply biblical principles, spend less than you make, be generous, diversify, get outta debt, things like that. But you allow yourself to be held accountable. Because at the end of the day, I can convince myself of anything.

- [Ken] Yes.

- And that's why at Ron Blue, all of our advisors have advisors, 'cus we wanna hold each other accountable to make sure we're practicing the principles. And so it's just an interesting conundrum. And it seems like the more I have, the more I need that accountability.

- Yes.

- Because I can just convince myself, and that doesn't mean you can't have a second or third home or whatever. It just means that okay, I need to be wrestling.

- Yes.

- And that's why we wish the scriptures in the New Testament were a little more prescriptive.

- More prescriptive.

- But they're not.

- But they're not.

- Not at all. But there's this whole idea of inviting accountability because you must invite it, but then we must be willing to hear it. And accountability is only as good as the information upon which it's based.

- Yeah.

- And then it needs to be inviting a person, would you help me have wisdom in an area I'm struggling with? So you're getting clear about that. And then inviting a person in so that you're protecting yourself from yourself.

- Yep.

- That's effectively what you're, but it has to be invited, but then it must be actually applied, and then that's the challenging of your questions.

- So, this book, Ken, it's been great collaborating with you on this, but hopefully this will encourage our clients. The first part of the book talked about the principles, so you wanna talk about any of those? We talked about why and when and where. Anything jump out you wanna share with them?.

- One of the things that you just mentioned is the desire we would like to have a tithe or something, a clear metric. Again we're driven by numbers and it's the mistake that we make then is that it's actually more radical, more profound than that. And indeed they compare a tithe as we discussed in the book, there are really effectively three.

- [Russ] Right.

- And plus a passive tithe as well when they didn't glean to the edge and then beat their trees a second time. That's a loss of about 10% of it.

- Yeah, yeah.

- So that's a huge amount, you wanna play that game?

- Yeah you wanna play the tithe game-

- 33 and a half percent or at least maybe 40%.

- Yeah.

- I wanna play that game so not, maybe not. But the idea of proportion, it fascinates me that the wealthier people are, the less proportion they give. It's the poorer people give a better proportion.

- Yeah, yep.

- Something's fundamentally misguided there because they cling, it's again, they're defined by the goods that they hold onto. And where your heart is, that's where your treasure will be also. So their heart always makes room for what it treasures.

- Well, and as I share in some of the, so you talk about the principles in the first five chapters, and then I talk about practices, and I think that's one of the things that makes this book a useful tool for people is how to think about it but then what to do about it. And one of the reasons people don't give proportionally that I've observed, we talk about in the book is, they don't have a lot of cash. They have real estate, they have businesses, they have homes. And those aren't necessarily easy to give without some planning and some forethought. And so it's interesting that only 9% of really wealthy people's assets are in cash. And so they may tithe or give off their income or.

- [Ken] Right.

- Or give out of their cash but, unless they delve in and get somebody to really help them wrestle with this, this is my observation in 40 years.

- [Ken] Yes.

- I remember early on in the business I looked at a guy's net worth and I said, "Hey, you can give away that note receivable." And there's $173,000 note receivable, I'll never forget it. And give to a ministry and, that ain't even crossed his mind. Because we don't think about all these assets as also potential to give.

- Yes.

- And that's why I'm just hoping that folks will read this and be challenged to really wrestle with those because I'm concerned that people are gonna stand before God and he says, how'd you do with what I gave you? And if they didn't wrestle with the asset side of their balance sheet and their net worth, then they probably won't give according to their ability.

- That's correct. And I love the way you speak about that idea of net worth, and using that. And having a paradigmatic change where you realize it's not just available cash.

- [Russ] Yeah.

- But rather something more profound than that. And there are vehicles and instruments by which we can give that away. So that's the hard part for people though, to let loose of that and to realize they've got more, what's the finish line? And what does God calling me to do in a spirit-led sense? But it's going to be sacrificial, proportionate or radical things. And so it means it's gonna have some effect on my lifestyle in some other way. Again, I desecrate the altar of Mammon by giving it away.

- Well it's interesting because you mentioned in, when we first started talking about this project two years ago, Ceilings.

- Yes.

- And you called it Ceilings, we call it Finish Line

- Here at Ron Blue.

- Finish Line.

- And everybody always has a what if, well what if this and what if that and what if this and what if that? And they can tend to, but guess what, whatever you're worried about, we can probably, there's probably an amount that we could show you could be okay. And there's still an amount beyond that. So we believe you can answer the question, how much is enough? Draw a finish line and then begin to give everything above that. And so one of the things, Ken, that we've been able to help our clients do is once they draw that finish line, draw the ceiling, then let's agree, let's give it away. But it's really interesting so. We agree that you're not gonna let your net worth grow. It gets to a certain level, enough for my kids, enough for my family. And then it goes up a lot and the number gets pretty big. It's like really, I'm supposed to give all that away? And so it's just a really interesting deal. But here again, here's what I would say about stewardship. Everybody's in the end of one. You're gonna stand before God, I'm gonna stand before God, and make an account for what I did. You're gonna make an account for what you did. We can't judge people. But so everybody's gonna stand there before God and we won't know if we're a good steward 'till we hear what He says. And so our job is to help people, individuals in their unique situations wrestle with these issues. And this book is really trying to help them not only think right, and encourage the right thinking with the principles, but then some different ways to maybe go beyond what they even thought was possible.

- That's correct. And another key theme we've discussed in this book together is current versus deferred giving. And this is a huge issue because people want to give with a cold hand and to control it from beyond the grave. Again because I'm defined by the pile. And then we hoard, and hoarding, God doesn't like hoarding and stinginess. He likes extravagance in terms of giving, generosity and actually defying that altar, so that we give it away. But you're not defined by that. But I have a great deal of trouble telling people, look, there is a finish line. Let's work it out. How much do you think you'd need under any condition? Give me a number for that. How much then do you want to give to your children without ruining them? Because many people make the mistake of giving 'em too much. And then third, then what's the delta? And then they don't wanna give away the delta. They want to cling to it, and they want to do it in a will rather than to do it now. If you're giving why you're living, then you're knowing where it's going. That idea.

- You call it cold hands and you and I would both agree, we are not sure how much credit you get for, you sure don't get the reverse compounding thing.

- You do not.

- If you wait. You never saw a hearst pulling a U-haul, right?

- That's right.

- So I mean you can't take it with you. So it's gonna be given. So yeah, that's just such an interesting thing for people to wrestle with. And you should probably include charity 'cus in your documents to catch anything that you weren't able to give away while you're alive currently. But you probably, like we gotta tell our clients, if you're gonna give it away when you die, let's pull it forward and enjoy giving it now, seeing the impact of that, get the reverse compounding working for you earlier. And it's just kind of an interesting conundrum that people will, they'll easily put it in their will.

- Yeah.

- And then you start saying, well let's pull it forward. Now the interesting thing, Ken is, as you know in this country we have a great tax law that you get current income tax deduction so you can pull it forward and it doesn't really cost you what you think. So there's some benefits many times to pull it forward.

- That's right.

- Start giving it now rather than waiting and letting it go through your estate.

- Yes, there are. But one of the hardest things for a person is to, even if they give it away, they're still holding onto it. I know of one individual who's given a great deal to, and it's a donor-advised fund, but it's a holding tank.

- It hadn't gone out to the ministry yet.

- That's right. But he says, "I gave my money away!" I said "No, you didn't, because it's in the holding tank." "But I did!" And so after, he couldn't see that he wanted that pile to be still quantifiable. And so he's not giving it with a warm hand after all. But he wants to think that he did.

- He did a great tax thing and we see this a lot.

- Mm-hmm.

- And at Ron Blue, we wanna help Christians free up resource, fulfill the great commission. And well that doesn't really happen until the money actually gets to a ministry.

- Released.

- That's helping fulfill the great commission. And so it's just interesting that you shouldn't let it sit there. We say in the book that you should have a shelf life on foundations and other things.

- [Ken] That's right.

- You should it out there. And you don't wanna handicap your children with them giving it away. You guys are gonna ask you how you did with it and well, I just gave it to my kids, let them give it away. They may wanna give away some of it, but what are you gonna be able to say?

- So there's this issue then of holding onto things and trying to define myself by the amount that I have. And so it's a hard call for people isn't it? For them to let loose and let go of a thing like that, because the money defines them so much, and it has a net, a kind of a effect on their thinking that distorts their thinking. And it becomes a temporal versus the eternal perspective. It's a challenge for people. And then the question of why don't I want to give it away? Why do I want to hold on to it here? It's a very, very powerful pull.

- Well, as a theologian, you thought this was an important topic to address because of that pull and what it does to our heart, as you said earlier.

- Yes.

- And I think that's an important thing to remind our listeners here as we're getting ready to wrap up that, this isn't a neutral thing as you said many times.

- No, no.

- It's either pulling us down or we're realizing we're sojourners. So just remind them again of what you if you had, you said, if you could just sit down for two minutes and say, hey, here's the thing I really want you to get out of this book.

- Yes. I would say that it has to do with living with an eternal perspective and treating things according to their true values. So I hold onto only what's necessary, but I don't want to hoard, I want to indeed compound it, but it's not a matter of putting it in a pile and letting that grow, and then I suppose, no. How can I know that, if it was $10 million given in 1920?

- [Russ] Hmm.

- And we might justify it and say, oh, wouldn't that be so much more later? How do you know that that 10 million released for the kingdom wouldn't have had vastly greater impact, and compounding again for the kingdom? So people want to, they don't want to let loose of it. It's an identity issue. And so it's a submission issue to the will of God. It has to do with really obedience to the divine mandate in God's, in our lives.

- And you've probably seen it, we can fake a lot of areas in our Christian life, but we won't fake our checkbooks. We won't fake the financial. We can go to Bible study, we can do prayer. But show me your checkbook, show me your balance sheets, show me what you're really giving and I can really tell where your heart is.

- That's where your priorities are.

- Yeah. And so we know that giving breaks the power of money, it helps release us from this idea that this is our home. It helps us think as aliens and sojourners. And so I would just say as you're listening to this as a client, thanks for letting us be on this journey with you. And this book will hopefully encourage you as you grow in wisdom. We want you to be wise with your money. If in a nutshell this is about how to be wise versus being a fool. And I really appreciate Ken, I mean here's what I will say to the people reading the book, they'll know the part you wrote versus the part I wrote. The practitioner won't sound the same as a theologian. If there's anything in my five chapters that sounds a little bit too wordy for me, it came from Ken. I'll give him the credit. But yeah, thanks for pulling this together with us.

- I wanna add one more thought if I could.

- Okay, no go ahead.

- Because if this book, we've covered a lot of territory in a very short space. I think it's biblically warranted as practical, it's challenging, and I think it'd be a good tool for any practitioner, any financial advisor to use with their clients because for that very reason. Because it's about an eternal perspective in this temporal arena. And it's about living with with wisdom and prudence and discernment and understanding so that we end and finish our journey with joy and well done, hearing what the Lord wants for us in our lives.

- And we made it an easy read.

- Easy read, yeah.

- And I know this probably drove Ken crazy that it's not voluminous and twice as big, but I think we got-

- No it's better.

- Lots of stuff in a short-

- Less is more, there's a lot in there.

- In a short package so. So thanks Ken for being here and thanks for the great work you did on this, and we just hope it'll be an encouragement to clients and staff and other advisors.

- Thank you.

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